Socialism/Communism

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Socialism/Communism

Postby Matbow » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:48 pm

bayside wrote:Socialism is not the answer.


Whilst I agree that socialism is definitely not the answer it amazes me that many Americans think public health care = socialism.

Coming from a country where public health care is a given (UK) and currently living in the USA where I have to buy health insurance, I can state that I pay no more in tax in the UK that the USA and I do not receive any better health care in the USA (it's still debatable whether "Obamacare" would actually end up costing US tax payers anymore than current health care spending).

And when all's said and done, it really just doesn't seem fair to me that an honest hard working citizen who cannot afford health insurance cannot visit a doctor or dentist because they can't afford the hundreds of dollars that would cost.

(Bayside, this isn't directed at you, your post just stirred these thoughts)
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Re: Jeffrey Whittam - Sons Of Africa

Postby jeffw » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:59 am

Mat - strange conception given by US government? The UK national health system may not be perfect, but it's there for all. I for one am more than grateful. Each to their own, I guess. Enough of politics. :D
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Re: Jeffrey Whittam - Sons Of Africa

Postby vincent » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:35 pm

Please can someone, in plain and simple English, explain the difference between Socialism and Communism.
In 2 sentences please.
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Re: Jeffrey Whittam - Sons Of Africa

Postby Matbow » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:54 pm

vincent wrote:Please can someone, in plain and simple English, explain the difference between Socialism and Communism.
In 2 sentences please.


Not quite two sentences, but close enough.

1. Socialism is an economic system while communism is both an economic and political system.
2. In socialism, the resources of the economy are managed and controlled by the people themselves through communes or councils while in communism, management and control rest on a few people in a single authoritarian party.
3. Socialists distribute wealth to the people based on an individual’s productive efforts while communists farm out wealth based on an individual’s needs.
4. Socialists can own personal properties while communists can not.
5. Socialism allows capitalism to exist in its midst while communism seeks to get rid of capitalism.
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Re: Jeffrey Whittam - Sons Of Africa

Postby bayside » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:40 pm

Matbow wrote:
vincent wrote:Please can someone, in plain and simple English, explain the difference between Socialism and Communism.
In 2 sentences please.


Not quite two sentences, but close enough.

1. Socialism is an economic system while communism is both an economic and political system.
2. In socialism, the resources of the economy are managed and controlled by the people themselves through communes or councils while in communism, management and control rest on a few people in a single authoritarian party.
3. Socialists distribute wealth to the people based on an individual’s productive efforts while communists farm out wealth based on an individual’s needs.
4. Socialists can own personal properties while communists can not.
5. Socialism allows capitalism to exist in its midst while communism seeks to get rid of capitalism.


Matbow:
Can't let your idealistic, simplistic, out-of-touch-with-reality answer to Vincent slip by without comment. Your opinions, of course, are your own. They are troublesome, however, when you attempt to present them as fact.
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Re: Jeffrey Whittam - Sons Of Africa

Postby Matbow » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:08 pm

bayside wrote:Matbow:
Can't let your idealistic, simplistic, out-of-touch-with-reality answer to Vincent slip by without comment. Your opinions, of course, are your own. They are troublesome, however, when you attempt to present them as fact.


The comparison I posted was not mine, it was from an article on the internet that I thought was relevant to Vincent's question. I really have no idea how it warranted such a scathing response though...

As for my own opinions, to elaborate on what I said in my original post on the matter; I think fairness is key - for both the tax payers and the people who need assistance (health-care, welfare etc...) There has to be a balance whereby every who needs care/assistance get's it, everyone pays a 'fair' amount of tax/insurance and finally, such assistance is at a level to ensure people have an incentive to reduce/remove their reliance on the Government (i.e. avoiding the Welfare Trap).

(I think this is an interesting subject to discuss and I appreciate it's a delicate subject, but let's keep the discussion on a friendly level)
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby johnrogers » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:27 pm

Guess my grandfather was right - Never talk politics,religion,or money !!! :(

However I must say this,a country needs national healthcare,regardless of what political agenda it runs on.Thank God I am a Canadian citizen and that we have a healthcare system.I survived stage four cancer thanks to our healthcare system in Canada.I approximate the costs of my treatments in the range of $300.000 and that is quite accurate - my wife is a registered nurse and has worked in the USA on assingment's over the years around here we call her Dr.Kelly.If I had to pay out of my bank account the cost's of my cancer treatments/and cure/and followup to this very day,my life would have been ruined in a nano second

The USA is about the only country in the free nations and socialistic countries whom does not have the national healthcare for everyone and I think it is the one major flaw that exsists in the USA - in fact I believe that the US economy is under financial distress because there economy is partially dependent on people paying there own healthcare costs.I am glad I do not have to think twice because of the cost's involved of taking my grandson to the emergency room if necessary.Enough said - back to watching Dancing With The Stars with my wife ( because she makes me :lol: )
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby Nefer » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:32 am

johnrogers wrote:Thank God I am a Canadian citizen and that we have a healthcare system.


While I agree this is a great system (proud and very cold Canuck here!) the downfall of the system is the long wait times for certain procedures. I've seen stories on the news a few times about overcrowding etc in our local hospitals. My bro fractured his ankle a few years ago and we were waiting in the ER for 4hours before someone saw him.

On the other hand, I'm against privatization because then who ever owns the hospital is more concerned with making (&saving) money than the welfare of the patients.

The system is not perfect, but I prefer to live in a country where my tax dollars go towards helping anyone who needs it. I really like Matt's comparisons of socialism and communism - very concise :)
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby johnrogers » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:18 am

Nefer wrote:
johnrogers wrote:Thank God I am a Canadian citizen and that we have a healthcare system.


While I agree this is a great system (proud and very cold Canuck here!) the downfall of the system is the long wait times for certain procedures. I've seen stories on the news a few times about overcrowding etc in our local hospitals. My bro fractured his ankle a few years ago and we were waiting in the ER for 4hours before someone saw him.

On the other hand, I'm against privatization because then who ever owns the hospital is more concerned with making (&saving) money than the welfare of the patients.

The system is not perfect, but I prefer to live in a country where my tax dollars go towards helping anyone who needs it. I really like Matt's comparisons of socialism and communism - very concise :)


Nefer you are correct in what you state about waiting times in the ER in our hospitals - however I have an answer to the reason why this issue exsists - I asked my wife Kelly who works as an RN in the emergency at St Josephs Hospital here in Comox why someone would have to wait 4 hours sitting in a waiting room with a broken ankle and the answer is simply this - they treat patients on the severity of there health problem,so the individual going in to heart failure will be treated before the person with a broken ankle.

You have no idea how wonderful our health system is until you are in need of it - When the severity of my cancer issue was discovered I was whisked away in a matter of days to be treated at the cancer centre in Victoria,no waits or delays,and Nefer it gave me a new appreciation of how wonderful our country is.The health system work's on this premise,the severity of the health issue is relative to the time of treatment.In other words if you were in a life threating situtation,the system would look after you right away.You can not appreciate how fantastic and wonderful our system is until you are in need of it.Again proud to be a Canuck - and damned lucky to be one.

Cheers Nefer - here's to your health :lol:
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby annagram » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:23 am

johnrogers wrote:Guess my grandfather was right - Never talk politics,religion,or money !!! :(

However I must say this,a country needs national healthcare,regardless of what political agenda it runs on.Thank God I am a Canadian citizen and that we have a healthcare system.I survived stage four cancer thanks to our healthcare system in Canada.I approximate the costs of my treatments in the range of $300.000 and that is quite accurate - my wife is a registered nurse and has worked in the USA on assingment's over the years around here we call her Dr.Kelly.If I had to pay out of my bank account the cost's of my cancer treatments/and cure/and followup to this very day,my life would have been ruined in a nano second

The USA is about the only country in the free nations and socialistic countries whom does not have the national healthcare for everyone and I think it is the one major flaw that exsists in the USA - in fact I believe that the US economy is under financial distress because there economy is partially dependent on people paying there own healthcare costs.I am glad I do not have to think twice because of the cost's involved of taking my grandson to the emergency room if necessary.Enough said - back to watching Dancing With The Stars with my wife ( because she makes me :lol: )



The US economy is under distress because Barney Frank and Chris Dodd (Congressmen) thought that everyone should have a house whether or not they could actually afford it. The banks had to grant loans to people who could not afford them. The banks then sold these mortgages to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (federally controlled banks). People were given houses at low interest rates and when the rates were raised they could not afford the payments and thus the houses were foreclosed on. That was the beginning of this mess!

Also the unions demanded high end benefit packages. The city and state governments are to the point where they cannot afford these benefits and the large penions. Many people retire and go back to their regular job the next day at full salary.

PS, John, next thing your wife will be making you read a romance novel :D Let me know what it is - maybe I've read it and we can start a discussion about it.

We have too many regulations here in the states.
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby johnrogers » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:37 am

Hi Annagram

Yes what you say about availability of easy money and people over extending themselves seems to be human nature.As a Canadian I want you to realize that I love your great country The United States of America.I more or less feel Canada and the US are identical in culture and our financial systems are very very similar.The world seems to be coming apart.Egypt,Syria,Greece,Italy,tradgedy in Japan,Haiti,not to mention Iran,Iraq,and Afganastan.Please make note- all of these uprisings happened this year.

One thing that makes me wonder is the political process of US elections.It seems that each and every individual is subject to extreme humiliation ( such as Hermann Caine ) by the opposing candidate.This is not what the world needs - the rivalry in Congress between the Democrats and the Republicans is putting progress to a halt - that has to be overcome for the USA to gain it's rightful place in the world.As well I mention the USA is one of the very few countries without National Healthcare - Healthcare is your right Annagram and you do not know what you are missing out - I can not imagine what it would be like to be under finacial distress and face a life threating disease at the same time.

One of these day,s Annagram I will read a romance novel just for you ( har har )
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby annagram » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:47 pm

Nobody in the US is left untreated. Those without medical coverage go to emergency rooms and receive treatment. It is an expensive method. I, personally, don't think the government is very good at managing anything! My husband and I are on Medicare (government health insurance for those 65 and over). You must go on Medicare when you are 65 - there is no choice. Medicare pays doctors and other health care providers very little. My husband was in an auto accident a while back and had to have surgery. The surgeon got about a quarter of his fee paid and the facility where the operation took place also got a quarter of their fee. Ditto for when he had his cataracts removed. When you consider how long it takes and how much study is involved to say nothing of the huge expense, doctors should be paid well. People complain about doctors fees. I seldom hear of anyone complaining about the cost of tickets to baseball, basketball or football games or concerts, etc. and these events can be quite costly.

My fourteen year old granddaughter has Crohn's disease and underwent major surgery in May to remove about five inches of her lower intestine. She had a very good surgeon and is doing well. We spoke with him one day while visiting at the hospital. He says he tells his children if they want to go into medicine to consider veterinary medicine instead.

My husband and I have always liked Canada - the Canadian Rockies are fabulous! And your side of Niagara Falls is far and away better than our side. Although I wish it weren't quite so commercialized. We loved Nova Scotia and British Columbia.

About those romance novels ------ I don't want you to become obsessed with them :D :D
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby tedd » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:19 pm

This is a controversial subject. In OZ we have the Government-run scheme Medicare, and there are many insurance groups which have private medical insurance schemes to which the Govt makes a contribution (about 30%) via the Taxation Dept for individuals who take out insurance. I think that insurance should be compulsory - there are far too many people who claim they are unable to afford private insurance but who have adequate funds to buy smokes, booze and support their gambling habit, who eat out at restaurants regularly and attend all the sporting events and entertainments that are around. If that's their priorities that's OK - but they should not complain (which they do!!) when there are delays in getting the hospital/medical treatment they want or need.
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Re: Jeffrey Whittam - Sons Of Africa

Postby bayside » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:11 pm

Matbow wrote:
bayside wrote:Matbow:
Can't let your idealistic, simplistic, out-of-touch-with-reality answer to Vincent slip by without comment. Your opinions, of course, are your own. They are troublesome, however, when you attempt to present them as fact.


The comparison I posted was not mine, it was from an article on the internet that I thought was relevant to Vincent's question. I really have no idea how it warranted such a scathing response though...

As for my own opinions, to elaborate on what I said in my original post on the matter; I think fairness is key - for both the tax payers and the people who need assistance (health-care, welfare etc...) There has to be a balance whereby every who needs care/assistance get's it, everyone pays a 'fair' amount of tax/insurance and finally, such assistance is at a level to ensure people have an incentive to reduce/remove their reliance on the Government (i.e. avoiding the Welfare Trap).

(I think this is an interesting subject to discuss and I appreciate it's a delicate subject, but let's keep the discussion on a friendly level)[/quote


We do have our differences here in the states, folks. What you see from the quotes above is the difference in views between an East Coast Liberal and a West Coast Conservative. Our ridiculous imitation of a president spent his first year in office cramming this Government Health Care Program through both houses of Congress, which his party controlled. He did this at a time when he should have been concentrating on the Economy. Instead, he demanded the full attention of Congress and didn't let up till the bill was passed. What the news media did not emphasize, however, was that the bill was OPPOSED by 70% of the public. This was an unpopular bill, very poorly crafted, full of special-interest benefits (all union members exempted from the restrictions of the bill), and, most importantly, it carried no provision of "How It Was To Be Paid for".

What people from other countries do not realize is that your taxation rates are far higher than those in the US -- and that's how you pay for your national health plans, or else you are rolling natural resources that bring in a surplus. We in the US balk at increased taxes and do everything possible to keep government out of our lives, yet we have a government that overspends. Sadly, that is a recipe for disaster, and was why I referred to Greece in my first mention of the word "Socialism". Tomorrow our national debt will hit 15 Trillion Dollars! We could pay for two health programs from the annual interest we pay on the debt. Frankly, I predict we are going to see a series of governmental defaults throughout the world that will radically alter all economies. The Liberals always demand more entitlements, but turn a deaf ear when asked how they are going to pay for them. Perhaps this will put the subject to rest -- unless ......... Bayside

ps: For John Rodgers -- I think back to the 70's when your country suffered through your years under Pierre Trudeau, remember? Perhaps, we, too, will survive.

Fortunately, our Supreme Court is about to hear the challenges from the public on this bill. I predict it will be overturned as unconstitutional.
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby annagram » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:21 am

The liberals answer to how to pay for these programs is to simiply raise the debt ceiling - print more money - there is no tomorrow!!!!
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby johnrogers » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:48 am

Bayside

I believe that the United States is a great country in every respect and again I mention that I realize how much you love your country,and I can see the anguish that you and your wife have over the state of current affairs that exsists today.We Canadians do pay a large amount of taxes,but for that we have a quality of life that is wonderful.Our highways are beautiful,our healthcare system is world class,I have no wants or desires other than what exsists.I want for nothing Bayside thanks to the Canadian way of life.

I am watching your republican partys campaign efforts.Why does a political campaign become some a media event,why does the centre of focus in a campaign become a three ring circus with each member out to discredit the other digging up dirty little relics from there past.These things exsist in Canada,but are kept quiet and dealt with behind the scenes and not in view for the public.

Why can't the Democrats and the Republicans come to mutual agreements on important issues rather than make a mockery of everything that is trying to be passed in Congress.The state of the world is in a mess Bayside and these are the things that will matter very soon.When the US troops leave Iraq,I am sure Iran is poised to take it over and I am sure that will happen-what kind of return is that for the lives lost and the billions of dollars cast into the wind - a pity to say the least.

However Bayside my hopes are the same as yours and I look forward to the day the USA regains its status it deserves.
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby Matbow » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:48 pm

What I would like see is a full objective cost comparison between a full NHS system in the US and the current private system.

In my own experience, having lived in countries with both 'systems' (and being a top rate tax payer in both) I pay the same % of my salary in the USA than I did in the UK, but I do appreciate that everyone's circumstances are different and I may not be representative of the majority.

The following link, whilst using data a few years old (and maybe not objective, I'm not sure off the affiliation of NPR), is an interesting read:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =110997469

While residents in Europe and Japan may pay higher insurance premiums or taxes than Americans, in the end, when all costs are added up, Americans spend more money on health care per person with fewer people covered.
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby annagram » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:13 am

I haven't read the article but NPR is a liberal organization!
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby johnrogers » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:14 pm

Why do American TV Newsbroadcasting Stations dedicate so much of there content to covering there political candidates .The Fox news station ,CNN and local news broadcasts,and US talk shows,and late night news shows.It seems that 70% of news that I watch on US stations is discussion about individual politicians,politican candidates,the tea party,the republicans,the democrats,govenors or local election news - not to mention the dozens of specialized news shows devoted entirely to the disecting,debateing,debunking,and analyzing of every little thing that happens.How it appears to me is that the American politicians end up with a celebrity type of status due to the incredible amount of tv time they receive.

It is much different on Canadian TV - we get our share of Canadian politics on television for sure but it is so consevative by nature compared to the American way.
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Re: Socialism/Communism

Postby annagram » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:17 pm

well geeeez, John --- we have four or five cable channels that broadcast nothing but news 24 hours a day seven days a week ----- they got to have something to talk about besides "Dancing With the Stars" or Kim Kardashian!!!!! Give us a break here :D :D :D
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